Public meeting, Neal's Meeting Yard, Covent Garden, London on August 3, 1993
As with the Marlborough meeting, we give excerpts below, from Paul Fuller's summary.
-----
Sadly this second lecture was poorly attended, with only about 35 people in attendance compared with nearly 100 at the Marlborough meeting. The style and format of the lecture closely followed the Marlborough lecture, as Ken Brown had wisely planned the meeting by preparing written notes of what he was going to say. He again repeated his main theme "Tonight is intended to highlight the fact that corn circles were Doug Bower's original idea."
Doug Bower then repeated the statement he read out at the Marlborough meeting. It read "I would like for us to go down on the record for us to apologise to farmers and landowners, and thank them all for the tolerant and good-humoured way - I hope that's correct - in which they've viewed the escapades of two middle aged pranksters who became obsessed with an idea - it was nothing more than a practical joke from the start."
Ken Brown then repeated the claim that he made at the Marlborough Meeting, that on the 28th October 1991 he presented Colin Andrews and Pat Delgado with evidence which supported Doug and Daves' claim. According to Brown Colin Andrews stated that "There are probably only about a dozen circles out of all the circles we have ever had that I can put my hand on heart and say they are absolutely genuine". According to Brown Colin Andrews repeated this claim in a telephone conversation with Ken Brown on January 18th 1993.
Then it was Doug Bower's turn. "Well, as Ken has already said to you, the thing that's upset us most of all is the opposition that we've had from these people. The general public I think - the majority of them anyway - accepted our story right from the start when it arrived in the paper in September 1991, but what was going on behind the scenes up until that time we had no idea until Ken came on the scene and he told us more or less about it. We only knew about four people which is the important people - these are the people that are still in opposition to us. I mean we've had nothing but insults over the telephone and in writing. My wife has been insulted. Its been nothing but insults ever since it all started in September '91. This is the thing that upsets us most of all. As Ken said just now we were hoping that the whole thing would have come to an end in September '91 they would have probably come up to us and shook our hands and say 'Thanks very much for what you've done, we've made a lot of money out of you and my God this is what's really behind it all' - its the pounds, shillings and pence - this is all that really matters. There was a statement only three days ago in the Southern Evening Echo - that Pat Delgado and Colin Andrews have now reached the 500,000 figure for his books - and translated into four languages. So I mean I can see really why the resistance and opposition has been put up towards us, they wanted to keep this going. And anyone with an income such as that are not going to accept our story."
Ken Brown continued: "Some people have said that Doug and Dave must have copied an original idea - [They say] where did they get the idea from? They must have copied the same thing somewhere in their mind or seen somewhere - [This is] Not true. That's [a photograph of] Tully. Tully was some circles made in reed beds or circular impressions made in reed beds. The photographs - I've blown one up there - is of a dished side - a curved side, the reeds are bent in other words - curving in a little bit like the side of a cup. So that's what Tully looked like. Paul Fuller keeps coming up to me - and he came to Marlborough to bring out all his photographs - Paul lent me all his evidential photographs for pre Doug and Dave circles. All Paul Fuller's photographs are blown down - blown down - pretty flat - not even with a slant on like that - they are even more wind blown than this [Tully]. Paul Fuller says there are plenty of circles pre the mid 1970s. I don't deny that, but boy oh boy they're not circles as we know them. Circles as we know them - our crop circles - since the mid 1970s are straight rigid sided affairs. They are not wind blown with slanting sides. They are not dished like Tully was dished."
Doug Bower was then invited to describe how he made crop circles. He and Dave always wore Wellington boots with deep treads. Apparently Dave Chorley used to be very concerned about the damage their boots left in the standing crop but this would normally be covered up by the circle they were creating. Ken Brown stated that he thought it was "remarkable" that the crop circle researchers had never noticed the tracks left by these boots. Lucy Pringle remarked that she possessed photographs showing tread marks underneath circles.
In response to another question Ken Brown stated his belief that Doug and Dave had never made any "grapeshot" circles - the smallest circles they had ever made were only 8 feet across because the width of the security bar from Doug's shop was only four feet long. In response to another question Brown dismissed the claim that it was impossible to see where the tramlines were in the dark without the use of a torch. He went on to state that it was quite possible to walk through standing crop without leaving a trail. Stanley Morcom confirmed this.
Doug Bower then explained that the centre of every circle he had ever made displayed a clockwise circle. The only exception was when making the outer rim. Ken Brown described how Doug Bower had created the "illusion" of a spiral pattern by laying down a sequence of straight lays. This method had been convincingly demonstrated to him by Doug in the field. In response to a question from the audience Ken Brown stressed that he had only examined the Bower and Chorley method of laying circles and that other groups of hoaxers undoubtedly used different methods which produced different characteristics.
Doug Bower then explained that he had discovered that standing crop was often knotted into small patches where the wind had blown the crop to point against the direction he was pushing his 4 foot rod (the security bar from his picture framing shop). When this happened it was much harder work to push the rod through the crop as it had to be pushed at an angle. It was this angle which contributed towards the eccentricity of the overall crop circle. Sometimes this effect was so marked that Doug would have to use a piece of string to mark out the rim of the circle so that he and Dave Chorley could push the crop down into a more neat circle. This was exacerbated if he and Dave Chorley began making a circle from opposite positions within the initial eight foot circle.
Ken Brown then stated that according to his calculations Doug and Dave made 42 of the circles that featured in the 61 colour photographs in "Circular Evidence", 27 of circles featuring in the 52 colour photographs in "The Latest Evidence" and 34 of the circles featured in the 68 colour photographs in "The Crop Circle Enigma".
In response to a question from Alice Keen-Soper Ken Brown stated that in his opinion any circle which post-dated Doug and Dave’s first circles was by definition a man-made hoax. In response to a second question from Lucy Pringle Ken Brown admitted that there was no photographic proof that Doug and Dave made the circles but that he and Doug were "baring our souls" so that people could assimilate all the evidence that was available. A third member of the audience pressed Brown as to why he believed Doug and Daves' story simply because they had told him they had made the circles. Brown retorted that there was more than just their word, he had interviewed both men at length, had discovered their own photographs of circles they claim to have made in Doug Bower's scrap-book and had seen the result of a demonstration which convinced him of the truthfulness of their claim. Doug Bower responded to a further question about why he and Dave Chorley made so many circles over such a prolonged period in time. Doug Bower admitted that it had become an "obsession" that was fuelled by the media publicity.
Ken Brown then prompted Doug to recount the early years of his circle-making. Many of the points raised at this point in the meeting had been raised at the Marlborough meeting so these points will not be discussed here. The only new revelation concerned Doug's own photograph of a previously unpublicised quintuplet event at Cley Hill in 1983. In response to another challenge by Chad Deetken Ken Brown pointed to the TODAY newspaper's own photographs of Doug and Dave half way through making their demonstration circle at Sevenoaks - the formation which featured in TODAY's exclusive story which had been promoted as genuine in such glowing terms by Pat Delgado.
Ilene Bower was invited by Ken Brown to describe how it was the Alfriston formation of 1984 which alerted her to the fact that Doug Bower was involved in something secretive. She was alerted by the high mileage on the car, which Ilene noticed because she did the books for her husband's picture-framing business.
Doug Bower went on to describe how he alone created the "first" circle in oilseed rape - at South Wonston in 1987. He rejected Chad Deetken's claim that he couldn't have made this circle without damaging the brittle thick stem. Ken Brown asserted that he had a list of 12 circles in 1987 which had not been made by Doug and Dave but which must have been made by copycat hoaxers. Later the audience were amused to learn that following Colin Andrews' request for information about new circles Doug and Dave would make a new formation and then telephone him with the news!
The first flashpoint of the evening concerned a disagreement between Ken Brown and Stanley Morcom over the so-called Swastika formation. Ken Brown stated that the truth behind the appearance of these Swastikas was difficult to unravel as Doug and Ilene Bower were both convinced that Doug had made only the second formation, the one positioned north of the A303 trunk road. Ken Brown found this difficult to accept as it would imply that another group of hoaxers made the original circle and that Doug Bower then made the second formation less than a mile or so away by sheer coincidence.
Morcom renewed his attack by referring to Doug Bower's earlier claim that he made most of his circles using the four foot long security bar from his picture-framing shop. Morcom stated that the 1989 Corhampton triplet displayed "seven or eight" concentric rings with an average width of 2 foot 2 inches. Morcom wanted to know how Doug Bower could make concentric rings 2 foot 2 inches across with a rod of 4 foot length. Ken Brown suggested that the rod could have overlapped adjacent lays. Morcom himself suggested that this effect could be produced if the rod was pushed through the crop at an angle. Morcom then returned to the controversy over the two Swastika formations and Brown concluded by saying that he thought that even though Doug Bower could not recall having made both Swastikas the facts suggested to him that Doug Bower must have been responsible for both formations.
When explaining the "DD" signature Doug Bower pointed out that "Every artist signs his own work". This immediately bought a question from Chad Deetken as to whether or not any formation had ever appeared with the "DD" signature which Doug Bower had not made. Doug Bower replied that to his memory there was none but that hoaxers had copied them before and it was therefore conceivable that they might be adding fake "DD" signatures to add authenticity to their hoaxes.
Finally, in response to a question from Chad Deetken, Doug Bower admitted that he and Dave Chorley had both made £3,000 from TV appearances and newspaper articles.
At this point my bootleg copy of the meeting finished.
PAUL FULLER
-----
Sadly this second lecture was poorly attended, with only about 35 people in attendance compared with nearly 100 at the Marlborough meeting. The style and format of the lecture closely followed the Marlborough lecture, as Ken Brown had wisely planned the meeting by preparing written notes of what he was going to say. He again repeated his main theme "Tonight is intended to highlight the fact that corn circles were Doug Bower's original idea."
Doug Bower then repeated the statement he read out at the Marlborough meeting. It read "I would like for us to go down on the record for us to apologise to farmers and landowners, and thank them all for the tolerant and good-humoured way - I hope that's correct - in which they've viewed the escapades of two middle aged pranksters who became obsessed with an idea - it was nothing more than a practical joke from the start."
Ken Brown then repeated the claim that he made at the Marlborough Meeting, that on the 28th October 1991 he presented Colin Andrews and Pat Delgado with evidence which supported Doug and Daves' claim. According to Brown Colin Andrews stated that "There are probably only about a dozen circles out of all the circles we have ever had that I can put my hand on heart and say they are absolutely genuine". According to Brown Colin Andrews repeated this claim in a telephone conversation with Ken Brown on January 18th 1993.
Then it was Doug Bower's turn. "Well, as Ken has already said to you, the thing that's upset us most of all is the opposition that we've had from these people. The general public I think - the majority of them anyway - accepted our story right from the start when it arrived in the paper in September 1991, but what was going on behind the scenes up until that time we had no idea until Ken came on the scene and he told us more or less about it. We only knew about four people which is the important people - these are the people that are still in opposition to us. I mean we've had nothing but insults over the telephone and in writing. My wife has been insulted. Its been nothing but insults ever since it all started in September '91. This is the thing that upsets us most of all. As Ken said just now we were hoping that the whole thing would have come to an end in September '91 they would have probably come up to us and shook our hands and say 'Thanks very much for what you've done, we've made a lot of money out of you and my God this is what's really behind it all' - its the pounds, shillings and pence - this is all that really matters. There was a statement only three days ago in the Southern Evening Echo - that Pat Delgado and Colin Andrews have now reached the 500,000 figure for his books - and translated into four languages. So I mean I can see really why the resistance and opposition has been put up towards us, they wanted to keep this going. And anyone with an income such as that are not going to accept our story."
Ken Brown continued: "Some people have said that Doug and Dave must have copied an original idea - [They say] where did they get the idea from? They must have copied the same thing somewhere in their mind or seen somewhere - [This is] Not true. That's [a photograph of] Tully. Tully was some circles made in reed beds or circular impressions made in reed beds. The photographs - I've blown one up there - is of a dished side - a curved side, the reeds are bent in other words - curving in a little bit like the side of a cup. So that's what Tully looked like. Paul Fuller keeps coming up to me - and he came to Marlborough to bring out all his photographs - Paul lent me all his evidential photographs for pre Doug and Dave circles. All Paul Fuller's photographs are blown down - blown down - pretty flat - not even with a slant on like that - they are even more wind blown than this [Tully]. Paul Fuller says there are plenty of circles pre the mid 1970s. I don't deny that, but boy oh boy they're not circles as we know them. Circles as we know them - our crop circles - since the mid 1970s are straight rigid sided affairs. They are not wind blown with slanting sides. They are not dished like Tully was dished."
Doug Bower was then invited to describe how he made crop circles. He and Dave always wore Wellington boots with deep treads. Apparently Dave Chorley used to be very concerned about the damage their boots left in the standing crop but this would normally be covered up by the circle they were creating. Ken Brown stated that he thought it was "remarkable" that the crop circle researchers had never noticed the tracks left by these boots. Lucy Pringle remarked that she possessed photographs showing tread marks underneath circles.
In response to another question Ken Brown stated his belief that Doug and Dave had never made any "grapeshot" circles - the smallest circles they had ever made were only 8 feet across because the width of the security bar from Doug's shop was only four feet long. In response to another question Brown dismissed the claim that it was impossible to see where the tramlines were in the dark without the use of a torch. He went on to state that it was quite possible to walk through standing crop without leaving a trail. Stanley Morcom confirmed this.
Doug Bower then explained that the centre of every circle he had ever made displayed a clockwise circle. The only exception was when making the outer rim. Ken Brown described how Doug Bower had created the "illusion" of a spiral pattern by laying down a sequence of straight lays. This method had been convincingly demonstrated to him by Doug in the field. In response to a question from the audience Ken Brown stressed that he had only examined the Bower and Chorley method of laying circles and that other groups of hoaxers undoubtedly used different methods which produced different characteristics.
Doug Bower then explained that he had discovered that standing crop was often knotted into small patches where the wind had blown the crop to point against the direction he was pushing his 4 foot rod (the security bar from his picture framing shop). When this happened it was much harder work to push the rod through the crop as it had to be pushed at an angle. It was this angle which contributed towards the eccentricity of the overall crop circle. Sometimes this effect was so marked that Doug would have to use a piece of string to mark out the rim of the circle so that he and Dave Chorley could push the crop down into a more neat circle. This was exacerbated if he and Dave Chorley began making a circle from opposite positions within the initial eight foot circle.
Ken Brown then stated that according to his calculations Doug and Dave made 42 of the circles that featured in the 61 colour photographs in "Circular Evidence", 27 of circles featuring in the 52 colour photographs in "The Latest Evidence" and 34 of the circles featured in the 68 colour photographs in "The Crop Circle Enigma".
In response to a question from Alice Keen-Soper Ken Brown stated that in his opinion any circle which post-dated Doug and Dave’s first circles was by definition a man-made hoax. In response to a second question from Lucy Pringle Ken Brown admitted that there was no photographic proof that Doug and Dave made the circles but that he and Doug were "baring our souls" so that people could assimilate all the evidence that was available. A third member of the audience pressed Brown as to why he believed Doug and Daves' story simply because they had told him they had made the circles. Brown retorted that there was more than just their word, he had interviewed both men at length, had discovered their own photographs of circles they claim to have made in Doug Bower's scrap-book and had seen the result of a demonstration which convinced him of the truthfulness of their claim. Doug Bower responded to a further question about why he and Dave Chorley made so many circles over such a prolonged period in time. Doug Bower admitted that it had become an "obsession" that was fuelled by the media publicity.
Ken Brown then prompted Doug to recount the early years of his circle-making. Many of the points raised at this point in the meeting had been raised at the Marlborough meeting so these points will not be discussed here. The only new revelation concerned Doug's own photograph of a previously unpublicised quintuplet event at Cley Hill in 1983. In response to another challenge by Chad Deetken Ken Brown pointed to the TODAY newspaper's own photographs of Doug and Dave half way through making their demonstration circle at Sevenoaks - the formation which featured in TODAY's exclusive story which had been promoted as genuine in such glowing terms by Pat Delgado.
Ilene Bower was invited by Ken Brown to describe how it was the Alfriston formation of 1984 which alerted her to the fact that Doug Bower was involved in something secretive. She was alerted by the high mileage on the car, which Ilene noticed because she did the books for her husband's picture-framing business.
Doug Bower went on to describe how he alone created the "first" circle in oilseed rape - at South Wonston in 1987. He rejected Chad Deetken's claim that he couldn't have made this circle without damaging the brittle thick stem. Ken Brown asserted that he had a list of 12 circles in 1987 which had not been made by Doug and Dave but which must have been made by copycat hoaxers. Later the audience were amused to learn that following Colin Andrews' request for information about new circles Doug and Dave would make a new formation and then telephone him with the news!
The first flashpoint of the evening concerned a disagreement between Ken Brown and Stanley Morcom over the so-called Swastika formation. Ken Brown stated that the truth behind the appearance of these Swastikas was difficult to unravel as Doug and Ilene Bower were both convinced that Doug had made only the second formation, the one positioned north of the A303 trunk road. Ken Brown found this difficult to accept as it would imply that another group of hoaxers made the original circle and that Doug Bower then made the second formation less than a mile or so away by sheer coincidence.
Morcom renewed his attack by referring to Doug Bower's earlier claim that he made most of his circles using the four foot long security bar from his picture-framing shop. Morcom stated that the 1989 Corhampton triplet displayed "seven or eight" concentric rings with an average width of 2 foot 2 inches. Morcom wanted to know how Doug Bower could make concentric rings 2 foot 2 inches across with a rod of 4 foot length. Ken Brown suggested that the rod could have overlapped adjacent lays. Morcom himself suggested that this effect could be produced if the rod was pushed through the crop at an angle. Morcom then returned to the controversy over the two Swastika formations and Brown concluded by saying that he thought that even though Doug Bower could not recall having made both Swastikas the facts suggested to him that Doug Bower must have been responsible for both formations.
When explaining the "DD" signature Doug Bower pointed out that "Every artist signs his own work". This immediately bought a question from Chad Deetken as to whether or not any formation had ever appeared with the "DD" signature which Doug Bower had not made. Doug Bower replied that to his memory there was none but that hoaxers had copied them before and it was therefore conceivable that they might be adding fake "DD" signatures to add authenticity to their hoaxes.
Finally, in response to a question from Chad Deetken, Doug Bower admitted that he and Dave Chorley had both made £3,000 from TV appearances and newspaper articles.
At this point my bootleg copy of the meeting finished.
PAUL FULLER